you'll find some figure online claiming that communism killed 100 billion people and people will just believe it

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@starwall The real numbers are bad enough, but some of the events being blamed on "communism" are not really attributable to communism, but to cults of personality around dictators claiming to be communists. The famine after Mao's shitty ideas about agriculture and pest control is hardly a fault of communism.
Arguably "communism" (well, contemporary leftist groupthink) has something to answer for the anti-science rhetoric that held back crop science in the USSR, because the doctrine was that genetics was a 'capitalist science' or something..

@seachaint keeping us talking about the shitty policies of people from the past is by design however, as that's exactly the narrative that benefits the current capitalist status quo. it keeps the left bickering amongst itself by talking about long dead people's policy decisions rather than looking forward

@seachaint and yeah, I do agree that much of the perceived evils of communism really can be attributed to the decisions of paranoid or out of touch leaders and their associated cults of personality. it's worth noting that so called liberal democracies often have the same problems though.

@starwall I don't think that the left can afford to hand-wave away to actions of Stalin or Mao though. They were psychotic dictators, absolutely enemies of the left. When people adopt the idea that they represent communism in the first place, they are just reifying what capitalists say about communism.
We also need to ask why do these asshats keep taking over? Yes, outside pressure. Yes, militancy to establish defence, etc. But maybe the far left's preoccupation with violent revolution has always lead to the same end. Maybe the collapse of communism dreams into Stalinism, Maoism, etcetera, are the predictable ends of civil war.

@seachaint look dude, revolutions are messy. Stalin's USSR beat Hitler's ass and arguably saved the world because of it, I can't sit around and call that an "absolute enemy of the left" move. and also, who the fuck cares? do you think that the policy decisions of some dead european guy are going to matter on the streets to the masses when it finally comes time to topple this system built on greed? Even Marx said it, "When our time comes we well make no excuse for the terror"

@seachaint I don't romanticize revolution, like some people. It's not realistic or healthy, but I also know that militancy is often the only option for achieving the sweeping changes that are, increasingly, becoming necessary.

@starwall I can’t believe communism is responsible for human mortality in general :blobsad:

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