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5e D&D is a very fun tabletop RPG and indisputably the most acessibly enjoyable Dungeons and Dragons has ever been

And

It is also easily responsible for more people bouncing HARD off of a hobby they might have otherwise loved because most people run it objectively wrong. And most people do this because the base books do a very bad job of guiding people on how to actually play the system for its strengths.

*more people bouncing off than any other system ever

Incidentally, i honestly think, based on how its shaping up, that baldurs gate 3 might be the Most Fun Way To Play 5e without a lot of houseruling and reflavoring (and even it does some that!)

@swiff that's because they market it as “generic fantasy" when it is, in fact, a very specific sort of fantasy. The options available in your rules limit the kind of stories you can tell without modification to the system. Literally the best example of this is Mutants & Masterminds; originally a D&D 3.5 third party product, the third edition is far removed from D&D you couldn't even guess the origin. And that system embraced the genre, it tells you what genre you're in and how to run it, and moreover, it extensively modified the original system to better tell those stories.
Another example: GURPS. Literally built as a rules toolkit on top of a robust skill system, the assumption is that the GM plugs various optional subsystems on top of that system to simulate the world and genre they want to tell stories in. Do that with D&D without going back to the TSR days of “don't modify the setting to fit the rules, modify the rules to fit the setting"

@swiff and the D&D Dev team kept the appearance of things from AD&D without keeping the logic and function, or even dropping subsystems fairly integral to immerision, the “Sacred Cows" (and ain't that a loaded racist term reeking of colonialism) of the system. AD&D was built around individual units in a tolkienesqe setting running down into an isolated location, and getting back out with treasure. The rules were built around that, but also built to force them to deal with their impact on the game world. You literally gained fame and noteriety as your level went up, at different levels based on your class you built a stronghold and got followers and quest hooks.
Want to solve Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards? Don't modify spell damage or add features to fighters, bring back AD&D casting times - fireball hits different when it takes 18 seconds of casting time. Wonder why encumbrance is important and gear is sold like that? Resource management.

5e inherited a rules legacy that it has refused to understand, even as it wears its trappings proudly

@swiff God, there is just way too much emphasis on the combat and power gamming aspect online and it kinda sucks honestly

@swiff Sometimes you just wanna do a time travel and tell Gygax "Hey Gary, tone that shit down a tad! You're attracting the min maxers!"

@TheAmazingM gygax was a min maxer and he would say they were right

The only thing Gary Gygax was ever right about was his love of polearms

@swiff Honestly, yeah
Motherfucker would look at Pathfinder and just cry tears of joy from the min max potential and try to make that shit into a new edition

Special interest activated 

@TheAmazingM @swiff actually, he would hate it. There's nothing in the rules that link the characters to their consequences in the world, resource management is damn near nil, and there's very little power balance (trap options where your character is screwed for making a suboptimal mechanical choice? Oh, he would hate that). Not to mention the very modern thing of “our system built for telling one kind of story in one specific world is absolutely a generic RPG", because he never had any illusions about that and actively supported the modification of the rules to tell stories in different worlds. Look at Birthright, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Council of Wyrms, and the different ways they modified the rules to simulate the world.

Gary was a minmaxer because your character was supposed to be a minmaxer, because you, in those situations, would do everything you could to stack the deck in favor of your survival. Modern minmaxers (who take advantage of the rules but not the facts of the setting) are in it to win, something he did call out several times (minmax a sphere of annihilation bitch. This tomb was built by a minmaxer).

Special interest activated 

@DissonantEevee @TheAmazingM That's a totally fair take but also I stand by my rude insult of Gary being wrong about everything but polearms as largely accurate regardless

Special interest activated 

@swiff @TheAmazingM well that's also true. That's why Traveller and GURPS are better.

@swiff I will say, if ZA/UM ever actually makes that Disco Elysium ttrpg DnD better watch the fuck out

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